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I've continually had a liking for the mystical, but it wasn't until I matured a little iota that I discovered John Maus!
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 Post subject: Re: John Maus is a fraud
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:13 am 
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city maus
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:41 pm
Posts: 441
he's not a fraud, he's a freud


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 Post subject: Re: John Maus is a fraud
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:19 pm 
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mausketeer
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Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:48 am
Posts: 170
Hi <richard>

welcome on board, to the board, welcome, welcome.

Hallihallohallöle, how are you?

Which are your fears? Your thoughts?
Tell us a little more about hate.
And love.

Tell us anything, everything.
Where are you from?
How old are you?
How happy are you?
How deep do you use to dive, in your thoughts?

How often?

How tough are you? Onboard? Offboard?

Tell us about blue
and green
and red
Are cats cute enough for you?
Or do you rather prefer dogs?
and white
why not about grey? and ashes?
what about purple?
and deep yellow...

Is love real?
How pitiless do you use to be, about censoring yourself?
And others?

Who made you cry for the very last time?

Would you ever, ever, travel through the skies for anyone? For your love?
Do you hate music?

About the future, what do you expect?

Talk talk talk, talk a little more, darling.

..


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 Post subject: Re: John Maus is a fraud
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:32 pm 
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anonymaus
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Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:43 pm
Posts: 45
richard wrote: *
He is a fraud and you've been seduced by the music. Never mind what it stands for, which if taken at face value isn't much anyway, you're expected to rely on what he says in interviews for any insights which just amounts to chaotic rambling disguised as genius, I'm not buying it. I'll be clear, of course we are complicit in a capitalist society, I don't consider capitalism a bad thing and I embrace individualism. I find his schtick disingenuous and his opaque post modern ideals deranged. It's a shame because I do like the sound of his music on the surface but after spending some time understanding the spirit behind it, I don't think it's good.
Well, thanks for coming back at least. Point by point like a real asshole

- He is a fraud and I have been seduced by the music. Guilty. I don't really rate the idea of 'authenticity' and surely being seduced by the music is, like, kinda the point?

- What does it stand for? You have not articulated this point. Can it stand for one thing only? Or are there as many interpretations as there are people?

- I don't rely on what he says in interviews. Loads of musicians I hate give good copy. Loads of musicians I love are taciturn and poor interview subjects. You're obviously well-versed in his thing but you're not really unpacking anything here. Like, 'disguised as genius', where are you pulling that from? He certainly never claims any kind of advanced knowledge. It's just the way he talks, discursively and jumping from point to point, making unlikely connections and occasionally losing the thread. Record yourself talking uninterrupted for a few minutes on a topic and you'll be surprised how often you're nowhere near where you started. If you think that there's some monolithic "genius" there then that says more about you.

- I don't think anyone is offended or bothered by your brave embrace of capitalism and individualism. Again, this speaks more about your insecurity about those things than anything intrinsically good or bad about espousing a particular ideology. Also, as a statist socialist, I love loads of anarchist/anti-authoritarian music and musicians, heck, even some right-wingers. Does all of your iTunes folder match your ideology, Richard?

- You find his shtick disingenuous. Well. You know what I find disingenuous? Coming to the small corner of the internet where John Maus fans have congregated for over a decade and signing up purely to moan about how you don't like John Maus because you don't like socialism now, and then refusing to engage with anyone who earnestly interacts with your points. Like, where is the sincerity or openness in that?

- You like his music on the surface but you've engaged with the spirit of it and you don't like it. Well, thanks for making a couple of posts about shooting yourself in the foot and doing yourself out of some enjoyment.

This thread is an object lesson in why no musician should ever i. say things or ii. get popular.


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 Post subject: Re: John Maus is a fraud
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:56 pm 
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country maus
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Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:54 pm
Posts: 321
Location: The vortex dimension
>Cringe inducing
Oh yes how dare someone show actual emotion and passion! What a silly idiot!


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 Post subject: Re: John Maus is a fraud
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:51 pm 
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anonymaus
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Posts: 45
my guess here is, btw, that richard is an MDE fan who got into Maus after he didn't apologise for being on MDE and read the Vice article where he trashed the very idea of the alt-right (mentioning Adorno) and now richard has to turncoat against Maus as all MDE fans turned against the musicians who did apologise.


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 Post subject: Re: John Maus is a fraud
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:59 pm 
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anonymaus

Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:43 am
Posts: 6
Not embracing post modern marxism/socialism doesn't automatically mean you embrace the so called alt-right. I personally find people like Richard Spencer just as distasteful and harmful as something like Antifa. Not being a proponent of socialism doesn't automatically make one a staunch supporter of a so called right wing ideology. I don't subscribe to a "You're with us or against us mentality" or automatically like to put people in a little box, even if they disagree with me which something most of the people on this thread seem to do. I find it ironic that a group of people, most but not all on this thread, who supposedly stand for tolerance and exchange of ideas (socialists) are in fact rigid and intolerant.
Gibby wrote: *
my guess here is, btw, that richard is an MDE fan who got into Maus after he didn't apologise for being on MDE and read the Vice article where he trashed the very idea of the alt-right (mentioning Adorno) and now richard has to turncoat against Maus as all MDE fans turned against the musicians who did apologise.
Assuming things about me without any evidence what so ever.
Viewbob wrote: *
>Cringe inducing
Oh yes how dare someone show actual emotion and passion! What a silly idiot!
Childish name calling
fl00de wrote: *
Hi <richard>

welcome on board, to the board, welcome, welcome.

Hallihallohallöle, how are you?

Which are your fears? Your thoughts?
Tell us a little more about hate.
And love.

Tell us anything, everything.
Where are you from?
How old are you?
How happy are you?
How deep do you use to dive, in your thoughts?

How often?

How tough are you? Onboard? Offboard?

Tell us about blue
and green
and red
Are cats cute enough for you?
Or do you rather prefer dogs?
and white
why not about grey? and ashes?
what about purple?
and deep yellow...

Is love real?
How pitiless do you use to be, about censoring yourself?
And others?

Who made you cry for the very last time?

Would you ever, ever, travel through the skies for anyone? For your love?
Do you hate music?

About the future, what do you expect?

Talk talk talk, talk a little more, darling.

..
Condescending
MausterofDisguise wrote: *
All right, Dean, LL, you heard him. Let’s shut this thing down.
Shut this thing down? What do you mean? As in shut the conversation down? Why?
Gibby wrote: *
richard wrote: *
He is a fraud and you've been seduced by the music. Never mind what it stands for, which if taken at face value isn't much anyway, you're expected to rely on what he says in interviews for any insights which just amounts to chaotic rambling disguised as genius, I'm not buying it. I'll be clear, of course we are complicit in a capitalist society, I don't consider capitalism a bad thing and I embrace individualism. I find his schtick disingenuous and his opaque post modern ideals deranged. It's a shame because I do like the sound of his music on the surface but after spending some time understanding the spirit behind it, I don't think it's good.
Well, thanks for coming back at least. Point by point like a real asshole

I don't call people names

- He is a fraud and I have been seduced by the music. Guilty. I don't really rate the idea of 'authenticity' and surely being seduced by the music is, like, kinda the point?

- What does it stand for? You have not articulated this point. Can it stand for one thing only? Or are there as many interpretations as there are people?

I actually have articulated this point which is, it's not clear what it stands for. I know what he says in interviews about himself and the music but it's a jumbled mess of indecipherable post modern critical theory. My point is have you ever been to a post modern museum? Have you ever noticed the sheer poverty in it's expression and execution? Have you ever compared a Beethoven symphony to John Cage? An italian renaissance master to Jackson Pollack or Basquiat? Does the decline in quality ever strike you?

- I don't rely on what he says in interviews. Loads of musicians I hate give good copy. Loads of musicians I love are taciturn and poor interview subjects. You're obviously well-versed in his thing but you're not really unpacking anything here. Like, 'disguised as genius', where are you pulling that from? He certainly never claims any kind of advanced knowledge. It's just the way he talks, discursively and jumping from point to point, making unlikely connections and occasionally losing the thread. Record yourself talking uninterrupted for a few minutes on a topic and you'll be surprised how often you're nowhere near where you started. If you think that there's some monolithic "genius" there then that says more about you.

This has nothing to do with me, only my opinions which you're welcome to disagree with. It's not personal and trying to make it so isn't a good approach.

- I don't think anyone is offended or bothered by your brave embrace of capitalism and individualism. Again, this speaks more about your insecurity about those things than anything intrinsically good or bad about espousing a particular ideology. Also, as a statist socialist, I love loads of anarchist/anti-authoritarian music and musicians, heck, even some right-wingers. Does all of your iTunes folder match your ideology, Richard?

- You find his shtick disingenuous. Well. You know what I find disingenuous? Coming to the small corner of the internet where John Maus fans have congregated for over a decade and signing up purely to moan about how you don't like John Maus because you don't like socialism now, and then refusing to engage with anyone who earnestly interacts with your points. Like, where is the sincerity or openness in that?

I'm not refusing anything or anyone and am being sincere, what am I saying that strikes you as insincere?

- You like his music on the surface but you've engaged with the spirit of it and you don't like it. Well, thanks for making a couple of posts about shooting yourself in the foot and doing yourself out of some enjoyment.

This thread is an object lesson in why no musician should ever i. say things or ii. get popular.
I don't find being a pitiless censor of one self a good strategy for anyone. I would rather hear someone's bad ideas, know they exist and if they're wrong it'll eventually become apparent. I think the idea of censorship of ideas, speech, and expression is a bad one, which unfortunately is embraced by those who consider themselves left wing socialists. Do I think hate speech is ok? Personally no, but I think people should be allowed to say whatever they want they already do, they should just be prepared for the consequences of their words.


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 Post subject: Re: John Maus is a fraud
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:03 pm 
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anonymaus
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Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:43 pm
Posts: 45
>>>I don't subscribe to a "You're with us or against us mentality"
>>>doesn't listen to John Maus anymore because he thinks he's a red

it's a troll, an amateur one at that, lock the thread.


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 Post subject: Re: John Maus is a fraud
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:19 pm 
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¯\(º_o)/¯
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:52 pm
Posts: 4054
Location: Pennsylvania
what are you exactly trying to preach here?
you don't like his music because he doesn't practice what he preaches/idealizes (at least through your scope)? That's a pretty limited outlook.
You're obviously seeking a reaction from a forum of Maus fans, like saying "I know better than you". You're assembling tidbits of what you don't like abt John (actually, probably what you're jealous about). Just an amorphous blob of negativity with no true base. The usual. The contrarian. Cool. Next.


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 Post subject: Re: John Maus is a fraud
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:54 pm 
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anonymaus

Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:43 am
Posts: 6
Gibby wrote: *
>>>I don't subscribe to a "You're with us or against us mentality"
>>>doesn't listen to John Maus anymore because he thinks he's a red

it's a troll, an amateur one at that, lock the thread.
You say "lock the thread" is that because you can't handle it when someone disagrees with you? Rather than discussing something you'd rather say "lock the thread" or shut them up because you don't like what someone says? I initially stated an opinion, my opinion and you are welcome to disagree with it of course. But what am I doing that's considered trolling? Expressing an opinion? Is that trolling? I haven't called anyone a bad name or assumed anything about anyone here on this thread. You are really just confirming what I've thought would happen if I expressed an opinion on a board like this, which is knee jerk intolerance for anything that doesn't tow the line, your dogma.
AppTrans wrote: *
what are you exactly trying to preach here?
you don't like his music because he doesn't practice what he preaches/idealizes (at least through your scope)? That's a pretty limited outlook.
You're obviously seeking a reaction from a forum of Maus fans, like saying "I know better than you". You're assembling tidbits of what you don't like abt John (actually, probably what you're jealous about). Just an amorphous blob of negativity with no true base. The usual. The contrarian. Cool. Next.
You're making assumptions and being dismissive because you have no real reply to what I've written which is very intellectually lazy.


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 Post subject: Re: John Maus is a fraud
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:55 pm 
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anonymaus
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Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:43 pm
Posts: 45
The reason I say lock the thread is simple - there is no conversation to be had with a troll. You think John is terrible. That's fine! We're a broad church here and there's a lot of variation of thought here except on this one point where I can say for sure that everyone else here disagrees. That's sort of the point of this forum.

Generally Mausspace is a quiet and friendly place for fans of John Maus to converse. I wouldn't come to your house to say that you suck and your family and friends are shit and then accuse you of not wanting to converse about it or that you're towing the party line by insisting you are good - that would be poor behaviour. Even if I was right.

It's also that you seem kind of dim and dishonest about your intent. You've said your main point and haven't expanded on it despite some replies. So where do we go? You're not really engaging with anyone. Like, when someone back there gave you a good faith patient potted explanation of what Theodor Adorno is about - and how that is DIRECTLY OPPOSED to what 'postmodernity' is - and yet you keep saying 'postmodern Marxist' like that is a thing that exists in the world. A postmodernist utterly rejects grand narratives of history. Marxism is a grand narrative.

By all means keep flailing away. The thread will likely not be locked. I don't care what happens. I hate myself for even giving you the time of day beyond my first post but I was really bored at work.


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 Post subject: Re: John Maus is a fraud
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:36 pm 
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¯\(º_o)/¯
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:52 pm
Posts: 4054
Location: Pennsylvania
richard wrote: *
Gibby wrote: *
>>>I don't subscribe to a "You're with us or against us mentality"
>>>doesn't listen to John Maus anymore because he thinks he's a red

it's a troll, an amateur one at that, lock the thread.
You say "lock the thread" is that because you can't handle it when someone disagrees with you? Rather than discussing something you'd rather say "lock the thread" or shut them up because you don't like what someone says? I initially stated an opinion, my opinion and you are welcome to disagree with it of course. But what am I doing that's considered trolling? Expressing an opinion? Is that trolling? I haven't called anyone a bad name or assumed anything about anyone here on this thread. You are really just confirming what I've thought would happen if I expressed an opinion on a board like this, which is knee jerk intolerance for anything that doesn't tow the line, your dogma.
AppTrans wrote: *
what are you exactly trying to preach here?
you don't like his music because he doesn't practice what he preaches/idealizes (at least through your scope)? That's a pretty limited outlook.
You're obviously seeking a reaction from a forum of Maus fans, like saying "I know better than you". You're assembling tidbits of what you don't like abt John (actually, probably what you're jealous about). Just an amorphous blob of negativity with no true base. The usual. The contrarian. Cool. Next.
You're making assumptions and being dismissive because you have no real reply to what I've written which is very intellectually lazy.
I've no need to commit. you don't like John yet you're on a John board. typical contrarian stuff. there's no discourse to be had. keep listening to what you like and we'll do the same |:o


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 Post subject: Re: John Maus is a fraud
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:29 pm 
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anonymaus

Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:43 am
Posts: 6
Gibby wrote: *
The reason I say lock the thread is simple - there is no conversation to be had with a troll. You think John is terrible. That's fine! We're a broad church here and there's a lot of variation of thought here except on this one point where I can say for sure that everyone else here disagrees. That's sort of the point of this forum.

Broad church? Variation of thought? You mean except when someone disagrees or says something provocative right?

Generally Mausspace is a quiet and friendly place for fans of John Maus to converse. I wouldn't come to your house to say that you suck and your family and friends are shit and then accuse you of not wanting to converse about it or that you're towing the party line by insisting you are good - that would be poor behaviour. Even if I was right.

First of all this isn't your house, it's the internet. Who are you to decide what get's discussed and in what manner?

It's also that you seem kind of dim and dishonest about your intent. You've said your main point and haven't expanded on it despite some replies. So where do we go? You're not really engaging with anyone. Like, when someone back there gave you a good faith patient potted explanation of what Theodor Adorno is about - and how that is DIRECTLY OPPOSED to what 'postmodernity' is - and yet you keep saying 'postmodern Marxist' like that is a thing that exists in the world. A postmodernist utterly rejects grand narratives of history. Marxism is a grand narrative.

Dim and dishonest? How so, I've been nothing but forthright in my opinions and engaging with you this whole time. Nobody gave a good faith explanation of Adorno in a previous post because there was none.

By all means keep flailing away. The thread will likely not be locked. I don't care what happens. I hate myself for even giving you the time of day beyond my first post but I was really bored at work.

Bored at work so you've decided to generously apply your time to converse with an internet troll? How giving of you. The only reason you've responded is because I've raised your hackles and you feel that your judgement has been called into question. You're awake now, you're welcome.


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 Post subject: Re: John Maus is a fraud
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:31 pm 
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anonymaus

Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:43 am
Posts: 6
AppTrans wrote: *
richard wrote: *
Gibby wrote: *
>>>I don't subscribe to a "You're with us or against us mentality"
>>>doesn't listen to John Maus anymore because he thinks he's a red

it's a troll, an amateur one at that, lock the thread.
You say "lock the thread" is that because you can't handle it when someone disagrees with you? Rather than discussing something you'd rather say "lock the thread" or shut them up because you don't like what someone says? I initially stated an opinion, my opinion and you are welcome to disagree with it of course. But what am I doing that's considered trolling? Expressing an opinion? Is that trolling? I haven't called anyone a bad name or assumed anything about anyone here on this thread. You are really just confirming what I've thought would happen if I expressed an opinion on a board like this, which is knee jerk intolerance for anything that doesn't tow the line, your dogma.
AppTrans wrote: *
what are you exactly trying to preach here?
you don't like his music because he doesn't practice what he preaches/idealizes (at least through your scope)? That's a pretty limited outlook.
You're obviously seeking a reaction from a forum of Maus fans, like saying "I know better than you". You're assembling tidbits of what you don't like abt John (actually, probably what you're jealous about). Just an amorphous blob of negativity with no true base. The usual. The contrarian. Cool. Next.
You're making assumptions and being dismissive because you have no real reply to what I've written which is very intellectually lazy.
I've no need to commit. you don't like John yet you're on a John board. typical contrarian stuff. there's no discourse to be had. keep listening to what you like and we'll do the same |:o
Ah the ol' I don't need to participate because I'm above all this approach, very noble approach except you're lazy.


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 Post subject: Re: John Maus is a fraud
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:42 am 
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anonymaus
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Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:43 am
Posts: 41
richard wrote: *
I don't know how else to say it but John Maus is a fraud, his live shows where he basically screams over his previously recorded music are cringe inducing. I also think he has mental problems, during interviews he rambles on and on like a lunatic and can't stay focused on a single topic for more than three minutes and never says anything concrete, typical post modern mumbo jumbo. His hero's are scumbags like Theodor Adorno and their likes meanwhile he sucks at the capitalist teat he and others that share his philosophy supposedly despise by being a part of the "culture industry" they demonize. I used to like his music now all I can think about when I listen to it is how toxic it's underlying message is and how insane and out of touch with reality post modern marxists are.
i mean, he's a fraud in the sense that all of us are frauds, fragile humans who don't really know what's what. I disagree that he is a fraud in the sense that he is selling junk, i think he is, like many of us, on a righteous quest for truth & doing his best to learn/give/share with the world. he'd probably agree with you in calling him a fraud to a certain extent & be interested in what you find cringe inducing about his previous live shows (which he has now changed, something you didn't bother to acknowledge in your attack of his character, which paints an unfortunate bias on your part). I think for some people to experience that reaction is PART of his work, because if you "cringe" at something it is truly revealing to your own personal beliefs & insecurities, & if you understood this "cringe" reaction rather than blindly trusting it as a guide to someone else's lack of authenticity, you may actually start to learn. Which seems to be the problem, is you don't like John, so you can't learn from him. But people DO learn from him, & I'd argue his messages are often pretty healthy. Accepting life/death/pain/love, pushing forward in hard times, awareness of the absurdity & oddities of life, importance of community, and so on. I think he's a good dude who is doing good work. But there is a certain amount of respect that comes with being a grateful & enlightened consumer, & i am getting the impression you are leaning more towards the entitled side. Sign <3 the times.

Although this is all mostly good news and there is more! You seem to be a curious person & have a relatively balanced head on your shoulders, so im sure there are people who you DO look up to and that you DO learn from. which is what matters, is that you keep growing, hopefully towards love & truth. Sorry that you didn't find it here, in the music we love. It may just not be for you, though it's rarely that simple it's often healthiest to just leave it at that. We all have our own path & paths.

also, when you accuse someone of being "out of touch with reality" you need to understand there are SO MANY realities & perspectives, that not understanding & being open to the fact that many are VERY MUCH in touch with THEIR REALITY leads to conflicts like this. Yes, some people are just totally out of touch with anything resembling sanity, however there is probably a lot we can learn from even people like that, & being able to distinguish who is in/out of touch with what takes someone with quite a lot of wisdom. & people who have that much wisdom are often so humbled by how much they don't really know, that they don't bother trying to call anyone out as being real/fake because it is all so so so real when you really see it with your eyes wide open.

There are many frauds & many masters, & all masters are frauds & all frauds masters. Keep looking for truth. It's elusive & everywhere :wave:


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 Post subject: Re: John Maus is a fraud
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:50 am 
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little maus on the prairie
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Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:23 pm
Posts: 217
Since you've failed to respond to my argument I'll post it again. I'd like to hear your retort.

Just because John makes music and does live shows to make money doesn't make him a "fraud." This is a basic tu quoque fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Also, I don't think you fully comprehend what a product of the "culture industry" is. John's music does not and is not intended to make his audience passive or docile. It isn't the same old mainstream garbage that these (to quote John) "candy ass manikins" at the VMA's are making.

As for Adorno, he was warning us of a society that is docile and passive because these were the conditions in Germany before Hitler came to power.

I agree that vapid consumption of repetitive garbage intended to normalize and promote individualism is obscene and dangerous. However, this couldn't be further from what John Maus represents or participates in.


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